the-universal-studio: what tends to throw me off is when someone will quote a part from the old testament, and automatically apply it to Christianity. Much of the rules set out in the old testament are overruled by Jesus, taking up forgiveness and love in the place of mass executions.
whisperelmwood: Yet 'Hell', one of the worst things described in the Bible, is something Jesus came up with. Lovely man.
the-universal-studio: well, you can't have good without bad, otherwise there would be no good because there is nothing to challenge it.
whisperelmwood: That's rather bad apologetics, really.
'You need the stick as well as the carrot, otherwise they won't do as they're told!'
Nope. Doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, I'm about as Atheist as it gets. Yet, I live a good life; I don't hurt people, I don't steal, I don't knowingly break the law. Anyone who does good things only because they think they'll go to Hell if they don't, is not a nice person.
I'm good because I know that's the right thing to be, not because I'm scared some beard in the sky will send me to Hell for eternity if I'm not.
the-universal-studio: well, I wasn't exactly debating the issue. but since we're on the topic, I'll throw out my thoughts on the matter.
It is not whether or not someone is a good person or not that determines if someone goes to hell or heaven, rather, it's a belief in Jesus Christ, while being a good person adds favor towards going to heaven. Of course, you don't believe in such a notion so it doesn't matter to you and you try to be a good person (from what I've perceived) for the sake of you and those around you. While I myself do this as well, there is that extra motivation to do good and to remain so. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and those happen to be mine.
whisperelmwood: No, I suppose my original point was to say that people may paint Jesus as all goodness and light, but on an awful lot of topics, he really wasn't. Same goes for a lot of 'holy' people (Muhammed for instance married a child - and you don't have a platonic relationship when you're married, espescially not in those days) up to and including Mother Teresa and Ghandi.
However, what you've said brings up another point. If it really is only a belief in Jesus that gets you into heaven - there are going to be an awful lot of pedophiles, murderers, rapists etc in heaven. The Westboros - some of the most repugnant people around - in my eyes commit child abuse as well as harrasment, stalking, mental turture and so on, on a daily basis - yet they beleive so damn strongly in the Bible and all that it teaches. So according to the 'belief' rule, they'll go straight to heaven, because, again according to the Bible, they are not committing any acts that will send them to hell.
There's my main problem. Religion is pick and choose. You can pick any of the holy books (except maybe for whatever book the Jainits use) and you can cherry pick them to suit whatever you want.
Want to vilify homosexuals? Got a tonne of scripture for that.
Want to make women into second class citizens? Same.
Want to keep slaves? Again, a tonne of scripture (Jesus himself even tells you how to mark them as your own.)
It goes on and on. This is why I mistrust people who cite holy scripture as their moral basis and is also why I prefer to use my own morals - which happen to coincide with socities morals as a whole (less those few who enjoy killing, raping etc).
(On a side note - if Jesus over-ruled th OT, why do people still adhere so rigorously to the Ten Commandments as written by Moses? The first couple of which clearly point towards a rather juvenile, egotistical, man-made diety.)
the-universal-studio: I'm not debating this. Any attempt on my part to convince you otherwise of something you believe in will be overturned by your belief system, and anything you say to me will be overturned by my belief system. I have several points I can bring up but it's futile to debate about religion with someone who has opposite viewpoints.
whisperelmwood:Uh - that's kind of the whole point of 'debate' - but never mind.
Is it me - or did that end as expected?