19 year old Kid:
if god'snot real then you can do what ever you want nobody can tell you what to do because we changed from animals and animals kill otther animals
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature
that's how we tell them of jesus
if you don't like the bible don't read the newspaper watch the news hear about who's the next president going outside etc you said that the bible is disgusting and i said what's disgusting in the world
Really? They are born in sin, so they carry Original Sin. If theyve not been baptised/christened, then according to that tract, they got to hell. There is absolutely no way you can get around this unless you admit that it is stupid.
im going to send you a video about this
19 year old Kid:
ok im going to tell you why dead babies going to heaven because compared to adults they have choices and unlike babies they can't walk to or even feed themselves and how can babies have choices if they can't think salvation is a reality
‘if god'snot real then you can do what ever you want nobody can tell you what to do because we changed from animals and animals kill otther animals’
No. No and no. No. No, no, no, no and double no. This is an old, old, old and tired argument and has been refuted and debunked and shown to be incredibly stupid by so many people...
As I explained in my last post to you – morals and ethics are subjective and driven by society. We cannot act as we please, because society will punish us. We cannot act in such a way as to harm others, because it is morally wrong – and it is morally wrong, because it harms the herd.
Animals in the wild will expel any member of the herd/group that acts in any way to harm the herd/group. Wolves, for instance, will chase off and even hunt down any member of the pack that is acting in a socially unacceptable way – for instance, attacking the pups of the dominant pair, stealing and hording food and so on. The same happens in lion prides, chimpanzee families and so on. Morals are not only found in humanity.
Animals don’t have the capacity to believe in any god, and the bible doesn’t say anything about god giving animals morals – so where do their morals come from? That’s right – it’s as I told you in my previous post – we evolved them, they evolved them. Morals are evolved.
Also – the bible simply reflects ten thousand or so years of evolved morals. Did people before the bible act differently? Were they constantly sinning, because they didn’t have the bible’s rules to abide by? No. In fact, some places were better than the Christians the bible and Jesus helped to create. And of course, some were worse.
Humanity is humanity – we are all both good and bad.
If you stopped believing in your god, would you go and rape someone? Murder someone? Steal? Would you start ‘sinning’, simply because you suddenly stopped believing that your god is real? That there is no-one looking over your shoulder, preparing to send you to hell for doing it?
As I have said, I and my atheist friends, acquaintances and family are all living good, happy, moral lives. We are doing this without a god. We are doing this without the bible, or any other holy book’s, laws.
On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of religious people who ARE raping, murdering and stealing. There are plenty of religious people who are living dishonest, moralistically empty lives. There are religious people who are racist, bigoted, prejudiced, homophobic – downright HORRIBLE people. And you CANNOT claim they are not ‘true believers’ – because they are. They believe with all the conviction that you do, they believe with all the faith and trust and knowledge that you do.
But it doesn’t stop them being horrible people.
The rates of religion and atheism, represented in the US prisons should be in favour of atheism, if your claim that religion (and your god in particular) makes people good. But it isn’t. Atheists make up as little as 1 percent (in actuality, 0.21% of the prison population is atheist!) That is disproportionately small, compared to the 8 – 16% of atheists in the US society as a whole. Christians, in contrast, make up 83% of the US prison population!
The most atheistic countries in the world, are also the ones with the lowest crime rates. Of the G-8 member countries, Japan (the least religious country) has the lowest crime rate and America (the most religious country) has the highest crime rate! In fact, Louisiana – the state with the highest levels of church attendance – is the state with the highest murder rates, TWICE the national average for the rest of America.
So, it looks a lot to me, like believing in god does NOT make you a good person (and likewise, that god didn’t give these people their morals, or me, mine, or you, yours.)
Oh, and finally, I’d like to say something about the bible and it’s ‘laws’.
They were stolen, almost verbatim, from older, non-Christian, religions. Egypt’s Osirian Requirements and Babylon’s Hammurabi’s Law are the most notable.
They pre-date Moses by at least a couple hundred years and have almost exactly the same laws, with almost exactly the same wording – oh, and Hammurabi also climbed a mountain and received his laws from the god Shamash in a way incredibly similar to Moses (who, as I said, did his climbing and receiving a couple hundred years later).
Anyway – next.
‘if you don't like the bible don't read the newspaper watch the news hear about who's the next president going outside etc’
‘you said that the bible is disgusting and i said what's disgusting in the world’
I had to break that part up, in an attempt to understand it. Truly, your typing skills and coherency skills are lacking.
Sooo... Newspapers, the News and President Obama (who is actually your CURRENT President, not the ‘next’ President, by the way) and ‘going outside’ are disgusting? I’m not sure I understand you. Let me think on this for a few.
‘if you don't like the bible, don't read the newspaper’
‘if you don't like the bible, don’t watch the news’
‘if you don't like the bible, don’t hear about who’s the next president’
‘if you don't like the bible, don’t going outside’
Nope... still doesn’t make sense.
What has liking or disliking the bible got to do with any of these things?
‘im going to send you a video about this’
Ok, so you can’t explain it to me yourself? Ah – looks like you’ve tried in your follow-up PM.
‘ok im going to tell you why dead babies going to heaven’
I’ve had to break this up again, because, seriously, your typing and coherency is appalling.
‘ because compared to adults they have choices and unlike babies they can't walk to or even feed themselves’
What? No, really, what? I’m going to TRY to make sense of this.
‘Adults have choices’ ‘Babies can’t even walk or feed themselves’
Ok, is THAT what you meant?
Either way, this did not answer my question about original sin. According to that Chick Tract, and the bible, and pretty much all versions of Christianity, original sin is passed from parents to children. The babies are born in sin and if they die before being christened/baptised/whatever, they go to hell for original sin.
‘and how can babies have choices if they can't think salvation is a reality’
This one baffles me. Did you mean:
‘How can babies have choices, if they can’t think salvation is a reality?’
‘How can babies have choices, if they can’t think? Salvation is a reality.’
Grammar is a wonderful thing. I would suggest learning it and maybe giving it a go.
Anyway, neither of those statements had anything to do with my original question, so I’ll leave them.
Also – you STILL haven’t answered me on the mentally ill, disabled and never-heard-of-Jesus people. What about them? Do THEY all go to hell? Why or why not? According to that Chick Tract, they would. And you sent me that Tract – so I’m guessing either you agree with it, or you didn’t actually apply any critical thinking to it – or you didn’t understand it.
If nothing else, these conversations give me a chance to put my own thoughts on the subject in order - even if it is all futile in the end.